Prototyping, Shifting & Scaling with Christiane Schneider

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Christiane has supported numerous international organizations in prototyping and shifting their organizational structures to successfully achieve their goals. She facilitates processes in organization in such a way that they result in high productivity, strong networking and space for emerging topics. That creates an environment in which people and topics can grow. By activating individuals and deploying the collective intelligence, an entire organization becomes faster, leaner and more dynamic. She draws on a wealth of experience and is valued for her methodical skills, her integrity, and her straightforward, loyal and focused approach to co-creative business partnership.

SHOW NOTES

TOOL Pentagenda

Scrum Papers

Scrum Blog

Synchronization of 100 metronomes

Flow Teams Article by Martin Gerber and Heinz Gruner

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PROTOTYPING, SHIFTING AND SCALING - FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Guest: Christiane Schneider Host: Simon Severino

Welcome to this strategy show. We explore with real people how to develop and deploy strategies that work. We discover how they overcome obstacles along the way down to [symbols] achievement and fulfillment. We dive into the most powerful routine, tactics and strategies and discover how they managed to stay fresh strong and happy. This is your host, Simon Severino.

Simon: Welcome back to the strategy show. We are here today with Christiane Schneider, management consultant. Christiane how are you doing today?

Christiane: I'm excited I'm happy to hear your voice and I'm excited to dive into… Yeah, the topics we want to explore.

Simon: It's great to have you here. Christine what makes you unique in your field?

Christiane: I guess what I hear clients tell me is the way I facilitate and that's why I turned this into coined phrase, that's a fluid facilitation. There is a certain fluid fluidity around me that clients really appreciate. And I have found a facilitation methodology, some almost now 20years ago which I have refined over the years and this is what I'm bringing to the clients, helping to maneuver through those volatile times in a fluid way.

Simon: So, if I'm your client, how do I observe that… what's the difference from other kinds of facilitation?

Christiane: I guess just right away from meeting the client for the first time the way I'm asking questions, I never take what my clients say by the face value. I want to know what are the routes, so I'm opening them up to have a curious inquiry in their own challenge. Because sometimes they have these preconceived notions of what the problem is about and then they already think they know the solution and that closes down a lot of alternative ways and maybe even more sustainable solutions if you dig deeper into the area where the challenge stems from. So, I think questioning is the first thing, I usually show up with the first prototype of things that I already detected in the very first telephone calls that we had, so that we have something to start from. There's so much information available right at the beginning which I then visualize for the client and backtrack for them and see if I understood them correctly and then from there we can start co-creating the process that will lead towards the solution that they're looking for once we understood what is the challenge that they're facing.

Simon: Powerful. Would you share with us how maybe some recent magic moments were described by your clients?

Christiane: Yeah, I had two things came to my mind. And interesting enough there is a YouTube video which I'm happy to share, it's from Japan it's from 2015, it shows… I think it's a 100-metronomes. Those are the little things that give you tactic [keyboard], I don't even know the English word but they called metronomes.

Simon: But it’s used when you're playing the piano?

Christiane: Yeah, exactly. And they have a hundred of those, and they are not in sync, so each of them goes with their own rhythm. And then they start them all differently, so it's one hundred. And then at one point [actually] a minute and a half they are all in sync, they all have the same Turk Turk Turk Turk Turk. And it's amazing to watch these non-living systems how they synchronize and get into the same flow on the same rhythm in such a short period of time, there's no one intervening there's nothing there that's actually making them go that way. So, the magic moments that I would point out, refer to this phenomenon which is based on the principles of self-organization and isomorphisms which we have a nature that you and I already talked about other instances. So, they’re always at work in living and non-living systems or environments. So, when I was with 280-executives working as a leadership conference and they had to get to their head to find a partner to do reflection, I had them do it in a self-organized way.

And I had like so many of my clients come in and said this is not going to work, this is going to be a total mass and they're not going to find their partner. And I said Relax, it's going to take a minute and everybody will have found his partner and they'll be having their conversation. And it was amazing to watch when they got out of their chairs and they picked up a puzzle piece and they had to find their partner with the same puzzle piece. It was less than a minute everybody was settled, 280people. And then they look at me like completely baffled and I was like yeah, this is self-organization at work and you can entrust your people that they will find that one person that matches their puzzle pieces, so that you can see those shifts in the organization and I can see them every now and then when the leaders are able to instill trust in their people and instill trust in the beauty of self-organization. And it will produce those shifts in so effective and in such short time. It would have been a nightmare to organize this for 280people in a mechanistic and very structured way. 

Simon: So, you trust that systems will self-organize and find functional patterns, because you believe in this theory of isomorphism when you and I will talk a lot about that. Could you explain shortly for the listeners what is the [model] behind that?

Christiane: Well, the model behind that is that my teacher [unclear] are from whom I learned a lot of the things that we're talking about. He's a physicist and he observed high performance teams in the 90's and even earlier and try to find out what are the patterns at work here? why are they so much better than other teams? And his magic moment happened when he looked at systems theory and the way how chaos theory describes chaos because it's not chaos, it's not random what happens around, it follows certain natural loss. And they are called isomorphism and [Iso] means similar and morph means form. And he took those isomorphisms and like a filter put them on top of what he saw at the high-performing teams. And all of a sudden, he could see the patterns and then he coded those into what he called Flow Teams.  And with this, this was the starting point for me and ever since I've been looking into natural laws, how nature organizes itself around challenges without anyone telling them what to do? A tree doesn't have a meeting when there is a faster growing tree showing up next to him, he just has… you know something's happening, it’s rapidly prototyping a way to get enough water and sun to survive. And applying those to teams and organizations, that's has become the core of my work.

Simon: Thank you very much. And now, when you work with corporations you work strategy corporate development, team building. I'm very curious, how do you make your own strategy? do you have a strategy process for yourself? how do you do that?

Christiane: Yeah, I know that he will be asking this, and I've been reflecting on this thinking about what is my strategy.  And yes, I mean I know a lot of strategic planning tools. And for me actually, the process of planning is what is valuable, the plan itself is worthless. I think it's also a famous quote from some military colonel that would say, a plan is worthless but Planning is everything. So, for me it's actually the activity the planning the strategizing, the I N G are words I'm using here, that are so important. So, whenever I think there's something I'd like to accomplish, I do apply the same rules and principles that I'm bringing to my clients. And one of the tools I'm using is that… we call it Pent-agenda, it's not a regular agenda it's a pent agenda because it has 5-different fields that you need to fill out in order to understand what you’re doing here. And I literally do this and this pent-agenda starts with what's the purpose? Why? Why do I want to do whatever I have feel like drawn to or that shows up? So, what's the purpose in this? And this is true for myself and this is also true for our working with companies.

So, why do you want to do whatever you want to do? it could be a project could be an event it could be a change and ever, whatever. So, the reason why, what's the purpose? And this purpose can be differentiated it can be individual it can be for the team it can be for the organization and it can go as big as a society, you know why would you want to do this in order to help society? The 2nd step then is to look for concrete outcomes like desired outcomes, things that you really want to produce. Here we’re entering the field of tangible products. So, is it a book outline? or is it a paper to hand in a magazine? is it a training outline? is it a workshop design? so something very specific. And once I know that; what I want to produce or what when I launch for my clients what is the concrete results that they want to hold in their hands at the end of the process? I shift to the 3rd field which is so relevant input and then I start looking for things that are relevant in order to produce those outcomes. In many cases this is my experience, there's so much good stuff in organizations so much knowledge and many teams and organizations have a tendency to disregard it rather than use it and build on it.

So, I'm forcing them to look at this and I'm forcing myself to do the same thing like whenever I've done something similar, what are good books that I could use what are good exercises that I used in the past that are relevant input for that that I can build on, that I might have to change a little or I can just use them the same way they are. I have research papers that are interesting and the same is true for the organization of the team I'm working with. So, what do you have already? most of the time they have concepts and ideas that they can build on. So, I'm asking them proactively to bring them to the meeting so we can work with this. And then, we get to number-4 which is the resources. Who do I need? how much time do I have? or how much time do I need? So, this is more about the logistical part of it. But in terms of team interventions it's also important to look at the resources of the people that are there, what are they bringing to the room? what are they bringing to the projects? And here we're talking about their experiences in former projects, life experience they might have made, things they've accomplished which is a resource for the team in order to accomplish the new task that is at hand. 

And finally, the 5th box is right in the center of everything I just described and this is the process and the process part is what I look at last. And here, it depends on your maturity; that's what I see in clients and what I also see in colleagues of mine when I work with them. This box in the middle when you start defining the process can have as little self-organization as possible and can be really mechanistic and structured and it can have as much self-organization as you can imagine. Some people call it free flow then, so when everything is just flowing. So, you asked me about my uniqueness? Finding the right process in the middle is probably something I'm really good at, I got really good at that over the last 20years what's the right dosage for the clients I'm working with or the people I'm working with and also for myself. So, for you me I know I'm pretty much self-organized in my own being. I can let go of structure once I know all the 4-fields are addressed and I know what the goal is, I know I'll accomplish it on time and on budget. I cannot end up I don't have a specific plan I do this at 8 in the morning and this I do at 11. It's just going to happen it's going to emerge and I know it's going to… it's happening. So, I'm pretty much self-organized in my own way of working. 

Simon: How do you make the difference between a self-organized system and let's say an under-organized or a chaotic system?

Christiane: I don't think that there are chaotic systems. It doesn't exist in my map of the world. I understand from what I've been reading and studying we are living in a non-linear universe, so things are not linear mechanistic. This world is not a complicated system it's a complex system, and complex systems have very different features than complicated. And complex looks for someone that has the mindset of this is just complicated I just have to look close enough to understand what's going on there and then I can figure it out and I can make a model of it that will one on one represent what I'm seeing. For this person the complex world looks chaotic. If you look at it from the perspective of non-linearity of isomorphisms off patterns that are at work it is not chaotic.

Simon: So, it's always organized?

Christiane: Yeah, it's always in a certain state right in those states shift from what…  

Simon: How can you find out if the patterns are functional or dysfunctional? For example, in regarding a specific purpose or a specific [packaging].

Christiane: well, if you think about let's say innovation, you want to innovate. I know we talked about this yesterday an idea it’s not an innovation yet. But the process of ideating in our looks quite chaotic from the outside. Your brain shifts from a focused mind to a more diffused mind where thoughts apparently randomly run from your brain and they make new connections and all of a sudden boom! there is an idea that wasn't there before. But the way the diffuse mind runs in those thoughts and that's them float around in your brain is in itself a pattern, right? It's not chaotic. And the same is true for team processes, if they have a face where from the outside it looks like oh my God I mean that's what it looks to my clients, this looks chaotic. Do they really know what they’re doing? I tell them yeah, they do. It's just that face where it's not the thoughts but then it's the team members or it's the idea or set float around bump into each other until a new property emerges, that then oh well this is how we can do it. And we all know this from our personal experienced how this comes into being.

So, that's why the functionality comes in with the focus that the direction you're giving let's say a meeting or a workshop. Just as I mentioned before you have some desired outcomes that you would like to produce. If on the way to those desired outcomes something shows up that is even better than you thought about the day when you made the design for the workshop. You don't want to discard it, right? You want to integrate it. So, you were happy to say OK, we hadn't thought about this well but that's even better than the desired outcome we were aiming for a day ago.  So, I don't know if this makes it clear. Evolution always has a direction, it just goes to higher levels of efficiency within itself, and so do teams they go they strive for they have that innate strive for higher effectiveness and it will come up. I don't know how else to describe this, because this is actually the problem facing with my clients. If you don't really… if you're not innate and have a real experience of seeing it hearing it and watching it, it's really hard to describe what I'm trying to describe to you right now.

Simon: What have you recently changed your mind about?

Christiane: I think I changed my mind about how I communicate those ideas. I can by now see many nuances and what's happening and I changed my mind about how to communicate those. And that's a belief I was holding that it's important for me to share with my clients as much as I can. So, I'm giving them everything I have and by this I'm overdosing my client with information he cannot process. So, I've changed my mind in terms reducing what I am sharing and making it likes little bites that they can process and they can metabolize. So, what are the incriminates that I can give them that are leading up to some of the shifts that the client is looking for? And it's not that I know, right. So, that I know ok, you have to do this and this and this. If I would do that I would violate the rule of self-organization, I can only suggest those interventions and we can test and see if they unfold the impact that I think will happen. But I never know what's the animal I'm eating, something that work with client-A might not work with client-B. So, it's a relative process for myself, while I'm doing this yet I need to be more aware of what are the increments of the interventions I'm offering the client, so that I can meet them where they are and then accompany them on their way towards whatever goal they set for themselves and purpose they are aspired to.

Simon: Christiane is there something where you would say this is holding me back, that's my obstacle number-1?

Christiane: I guess my obstacle number-1 is being afraid… [off point talks]. Because it's challenging for people to let go of their control mechanisms and stop that control paradigm and the mechanistic idea that you can structure everything and then you are in full control to bust the idea off control, right? That this is out of control basically. But we have this illusion, so and I'm afraid of really busting this illusion how little we really do control. Yes, we have influence and it's good to exert our influence, but the system bites back. So, if I promote this, all the fears that people have get fired at me because I'm the messenger here. And I guess that's what's holding me back, I'm sometimes afraid to do this because some of the managers are really overworked they’re really stressed, they're on a lot of pressure and if they find an outlet they snap at you. And I'm sometimes afraid of this, have to say it and that's holding me back. And that's my personal growth edges finding a way of how can I deliver the value within the work I do in a way that it doesn't backfire at me or want to live that tough love sometimes gets you in that hot seat. So, I mean that's my process. I don't know, does that make sense to you?

Simon: It makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing these, Christiane. We also talked in the last days about the male energy in consulting and incorporation and [inaudible], yeah, I’m so inspired by that. Do you observe incorporations that the male and the female essence do have impact on strategy on results, and what are your [insight]?

Christiane: While it's a field I'm recently exploring the power of masculine and feminine essence. And it's important for me to say it's not about gender. You and I talked about this is like we both have the masculine and feminine essences in us and it's a way to describe I guess how the universe works at another level. And if you take the masculine essences the way I look at it right now the one that is the consciousness that bring structure that brings direction to the world. And if you look at the feminine essence more at everything that is in motion, everything that is emotion for example is also part of the feminine [riyam] let's say, and the feminine is always in flux there's always something happening nothing's ever good enough, we just keep going which can drive man nuts as you know in some of the relationships where the man just things like “come on we’re done” and there was no, that was good now but what about now? what about now? what about now? So, there's always something going on and it's never good enough, it's like the dancing part towards the stillness and meditative more masculine forms that we have and how dance and meditation can go together.

And if I take this to the corporate level and this is the field I'm exploring right now, for myself as a woman I know how hard it is to walk into a boardroom full of man and be the only woman, I can feel my body stiffening I can get into that rigid structure I can start feel my body becoming quite masculinized, so that I can take on with the guys. How can I keep my feminine fluidity in face of that and what will be necessary for the masculine side to accept and welcome feminine fluidity if it comes… it can also come from a man, right? because I just said men and women have both in them. So, that it has the same acceptance and it's welcomed. They’re always very receptive and very happy and they'd like to have women around because things become lighter it becomes more fun it becomes more humorous it's less stiff. So, they appreciate that, yet to appreciate the value in terms making business or doing business by having those two poles integrated or take the polarization to the extreme and see what is the creative force that works through both of them if they can fully live what's important for them. That's the field I'm going to go into more in the coming months and years I'm guessing. 

And if I can take it one step up before I look at the world, I can see this happening on the world stage as well. You know you have these like super powerful men that behave like I mean they're like the gladiators of the modern age. And we’re missing the counter pole the feminine the goddess basically, right. So, this is how can they come together so that we don't have that tipping point tall words even more, and it doesn't get too masculinized but that we have both in an equal share. I mean we're here at a point of time in the history where in a few nations women have done a lot to get at i-level with the guys still have an equal pay, but we're on our way. But it shouldn't be the way that the women need to be as good as the man or the better man, I don't think that this is the answer, I think that they both should be in their full power and in their full beauty and then collaborate and cooperate. So, that's my vision. I don't know how to do this yet, I'll start with myself and the colleagues around me and see what we can do there. So, that's definitely not for the corporate world yet. But I'm sure if you talk to managers they'd like to have more of this in their boardrooms every now and then.

Simon: Two things you said yesterday I'm pondering about. The first one was man learned through challenge.

Christiane: Yeah, it wasn't learned, it was grow. Men grow through challenge. Yes, they grow through challenge and women grow through price.

Simon: And the second one was Men tend towards nothingness stillness, and women towards life and movement.  And do we have that in boards? do we have that in top executive teams? do you find that there? I mean I know for myself that I am a checklist junkie in the standardization junk automatization junky and I found myself in this going towards stillness because I want to do everything just once.

Christiane: There you go. And then what? Wait, so if you've done everything?

Simon: And then, it's a checklist and then it's done. And then I code it I write it down, it's an SOP everybody has to do this stand [unclear].

Christiane: Ok, I get this. And then what when everything is done? So, what's the purpose of getting everything done? The next one? Then we can innovate. OK, where is that innovation for you come from, what place?  Making the customer happy and then internally for yourself.

Simon: Making the customer happy, being 1-step forwards.

Christiane: Where do you go once everything's done and Internally?

Simon: That's a good question, where do we go when everything's done? Basically, into deepness into asking are we in the right markets are we in the right products, is the customer getting what he needs what he deserves? are basically challenging the big picture and the fundamental questions.

Christiane: Yeah, and that deepness and that sitting in the deepness by holding the questions you're just said that's quote unquote. You know you go into nothingness into consciousness and see what's arising, you don't do anything. The idea is to go deep sit and think. So, where if you take it to the other side the feminine would say OK, let's get a piece of paper out let do this let's do this let's put this here, let's call them go here test this let's have a bite of this, OK why don't we just kind of have some music right now and then see what's happening then, let's pause here and we’ll have some foods, I'm going da dadada dadada, right? that's what the feminine essence would do, right? So, in there if you let them do what they do so that type of rapid prototyping idea and creating new things and co-creating all the time, because it's also very relational and of through relationship through other people whereas the masculine essence doesn't need that relationship access, they can just go right into the topic.

Simon: I can relate very well to that. Yeah, I can imagine myself sitting in front of a Google sheet for 3hours and just waiting what emerges.

Christiane: Cue feminine essence impossible, I have to call my friend I have to have this, what is your thought and see this and… so, it's conversation. So, I’ll bring you… that's if you're in a boardroom when you just want to check check check structure plan concept milestones check check check, this no creation there, it is basically you do, wherever the creation happens in organizations it's definitely not in those boardroom meetings where the top guys drop the agenda drop the checklist and say OK here's a challenge, how do we go about this? what's your thought? and let’s write this down and let's have a first sketch let's do a first prototype. That requires to show yourself in a very vulnerable thinking place which is very different than well-structured well thought through. I want to say it's not happening, at this boards they do this, right? They’ve considered themselves to be as the thinking engine and the driving engine.  But it's rarely that the men collaborate out of their own essence rather have the Steve Jobs the one brilliant man right, that does it on his own. You know, he goes out in the desert and then he comes back with a super idea. So, that's more the male idea, where the feminine idea is more let's sit together let's talk about this. I would say that this is why design thinking has gone viral, I would say why the work of designers the way they work got coded into this design thinking process and one of those things is this ideation process and then rapid prototyping. This is what trauma does with as you process, once you've gone through the deed and you get out of the depth you go into prototyping. That's nice way of linking it so you have them in a sequence. And maybe that’s it.

Simon: If I'm a manager, printing I can go to cue prototype.

Christiane: Oh yes, spot. I just you to say yes spot a 100-times and then that’s it. Because the better and more functional answer will be yes and you’ll be building on what's there and make it even better. That's a huge challenge because it requires you to understand what's there and make it even better. The yes butting is the super simple thing, you just discarding it and tell people why things are not happening not working. It's a big one to overcome, it’s a simple move, we call them a micro move. To say yes and then rather to yes, but shifts the energy in the room. So, if you talk about many interventions shifting from yes but to yes and is a big one because of the underlying mental model. So that's definitely one as the yes spot. I just recently made a little drawing which I'm probably going to put into a little model which I called leading effortlessly. And that leading effortlessly for me has 3-bubbles; one is called you need to know how to ask questions. So, questioning is one. Soliciting through questions; how do you ask good questions.  That's an art in itself. So, questioning would be one, then focuses the 2nd one. Either with the pent-agenda or whatever focus you have that you are clear about your focus, what are you either aiming at or what is pulling you.

You know some people have the sense that they are being pulled toward something, so what is that? Or they want to go towards something that they’re setting that they think that's where we need to go. And then the 3rd one is actually the giving form too. So, that's the prototyping form gable, giving form to. So, that if I have the right questions and I have the right focus, how do I give it a form? and that form then needs to go out in the world and be tested just as nature tests it's new forms, some will survive some won't survive. And then the key thing is go with the ones that survive, don't analyze the ones that are not surviving they're just not surviving. Nature doesn't care something's not surviving or it doesn't fit, you know then it doesn't fit they go only keep put their energy on what's working. So, then you put the form into casting and then you go back to questioning, you know what's working here? how can we make it even better? And then you get to focus again and then you go to give it another form again. So, that's a cycle that just recently came up in my thinking about how can I lead effortlessly. If I ask the why question, if I have a focus and I give it a form either myself or with a team. So, I think those are three things you could do.

Simon: Beautiful. Thank you. what are your 2-favorite books at the moment?

Christiane: My 2-favorite books at the moment, I mean my all-time classics I'd rather take those and then they're now available in 2-iterations; one is spiral dynamics by Don Back and then you’re more… just readable version also for organizations and managers as reinventing organizations. But the source of reinventing organizations is actually the work of Don Back and Jon Cohen around Spiral Dynamics. That’s definitely one, and the other one… let me think about what else would I recommend nowadays for people to read. There's a lot of good books around at agility agile and I actually think that whatever you can read about scrum is a good entry point into this world. I just got…

Simon: Also for management, not only for the I.T processes.

Christiane: Yeah, I mean they are now being asked, I just spent 2days with Jeff Sutherland the Creator of scrum and it's beautiful to see how he crafted his art over all these years since 1987 I think that's when he started. A tremendous body of research is there and how they can prove the effectiveness of the math of this really lightweight framework that it is. It is really simple, but you need to do what they say and you need to stick to the values that are underneath.

Simon: What could a management team do in a meeting to start it and to deliver it in a scrum way?

Christiane: It goes together with what we talked about the pent-agenda; you know you need to have a clear focus. So, in terms of having a sprint goal, that's what they call it, make sure that you have a goal a focus if you want to do. So, and if a team… And that's another thing I learned from Jeff is the ideal team size is 4.6, And when I go and teach fluid facilitation I tell people you want to have groups of 4 or 5-people because it's the most effective and productive group size. And now there's a ton of research that says this is the most effective groups…

Simon: I always felt the number-4 of our teams I am really happy about that, 4.6.

Christiane: I don't want to go into details but that 4.6 is a proven fact. So, you know have a sprint goal, make sure that your team whatever is about that size, rather have teams work in parallel towards the same Sprint goal. It’s a time box and scrum started with a month for a sprint, but now they're down to 2weeks and he says there's also already companies that do 1week sprints. And then, because I don't think it's doable for organizations that if you focus all your attention your resources on one topic for 1week and yet it's highly advisable. Yeah, and it's highly effective. That's one of the things, I don't have the numbers, I know where it is but I don't have the number at hand right now.  How much more productive you are if you can focus on 1-thing rather than doing 6 or 7-things in parallel. Because the time for you to ramp up to get into the new task and get out of the task get into the new task, you're losing so much of your productivity by doing this.

Simon: I read once you need 15% of the time to go back to your task and back to the same amount of focus every time you get out of it.

Christiane: Yeah, it's amazing. So, if you want to increase the productivity of your team is have a clear pent-agenda a clear goal, give them a good time frame, allow them to focus on this and you just do it for a day or two. This is why workshops can be so productive.  And then, let them figure out themselves how what they want to accomplish the Sprint goal. Don't interfere with the self-organizing mechanisms that will start to blossom. So, you need someone like you and me probably which in their terminology is a scrum master, right? and I be a facilitation master. That can guide them and just watch that they don't get caught up in an old thinking basically. But only at the beginning and then they can do it themselves, right.

Simon: So, focused at the beginning start with the end in mind, write it down visualize it, create this pace in the room and then you say then it's the sprint that would be the scrum name. And in your terminology of fluid facilitation it would be just the work basically of the groups?

Christiane: Yeah, I mean the Sprint is nothing just but the time box right. The sprint and scrum is just the time box, it signifies the time. So, if we have a workshop our sprint is a 2day sprint, right. So, then the Sprint is 2days and not 2weeks. So, if you say how do I bring it out of IT and to scaling scrum which is the big topic right now, how do we scale scrum. Because the scrum is so much more effective that the rest of the organization wants to have the same benefits, but they don't [unclear]. Right now, scaling scrum is everywhere in terms of how can we do this and how can we learn from what's working there and transfer it into the rest of the organizations. And there's some really good hints that you can find on the Internet how they're doing it. But it has small teams it has the sprint idea; you have to have a goal you have to have people self-organizing within their teams. You need to have a good product backlog which [unclear] the start the board, it’ll be really clear on their priorities and there's only one thing at the top of the list, you'll like that. And then…

Simon: Because for me this print is on the one side it's the time box, but it is also the exclusion of everything else which means it creates the focus.

Christiane: Exactly. Yeah, the focus of this sprint goal, I mean that's what the goal of that sprint gives you, like you know focus on this and nothing else, so on everything else can be discarded because this is your assignment.

Simon: When you say there is very helpful resources. Could you share with our listeners in the show notes after works?

Christiane: They need to go to scrum Inc, there's tons of stuff there at scrum Inc, Jeff's surveillance organization. And I think doing this scrum course at one point just to learn about the thinking is very helpful. I had people from a big energy company sitting next to me, managers, really top managers. I was surprised what they would do in that course and they said well, all my people work with this and now I need to get a better understanding what the hell are they doing there.  So, the pressure is on and it's more like a bottom up approach in this case when all the top leaders have to say OK, I better get a hold on this mental model that is more and more creeping into the organization through I.T. through Digitalization. This is going to change the way we work, not because of the technology but how that technology is being produced through this idea that it's mostly scrum ideas, the scrum is the most prominent I would say.

Simon: So, top managers now I understand what the main object are doing in their corporation. Did these also have some impact on how they do their meetings and their work?

Christiane: That I don't know. I haven't followed up with them, I mean contact with some of them. And you just said is like what they do and I would say what and how they do it. So, the what and the how. So, and here again the masculine and the feminine kicks in, the masculine would say OK the watch take it off take it off take it off, and the feminine would say how; how are you doing this? how are you communicating? how are you meeting? how are you producing? what is the process side of this? So, this is the what and the how, and the what and the how needs to be understood by top management. Anything you read about Agile leadership is asking managers to become more get more literacy in the how, not in the what but in the how.

Simon: Beautiful, that's how we had it again with the 2-energies. Nice. Is there anything I forgot to ask you?

Christiane: No, I don’t think so. I'm surprised about all the things I said, so it's always amazing if I… And the process and just let it flow. I'm curious to hear what I said, I’m curious to get feedback from you and and the listeners about what I said, what they resonate with, what other questions come up for them and I'm happy to engage with the audience.

Simon: Thanks for being part of this strategy show. And you our dear listeners will find the resources we mentioned as always in the show notes as well as on strategysprints.com. If you want to help others find the show feel free to leave a comment on iTunes and recommend those in your social networks. Keep rocking happy day. Simon.

Simon SeverinoComment